Share Options

As I've said in the introduction My Life, I stumbled across options when I was studying Investment Planning. It seems difficult to understand what options mean at first, but once you know the meaning, it is basically the same as the pizza voucher you get in the mail box every week.

If you want the definition, there are many websites you can go to, one of them is http://stocks.about.com/od/advancedtrading/a/OptionBa022705.htm

It says that:
An option is a contract that gives the owner the right, but not the obligation, to buy or sell a security at a particular price on or before a certain date.

Investors buy and sell options just like stocks. There are two basic types of options:

• The call option
• The put option

The Call Option

The call option is the right to buy the underlying security at a certain price on or before a certain date.

I will explain what call and put options are in a moment. Basically, an option is a derivative. This is because it derives it's price from the share price itself. Unlike pizza voucher which you get for free, options have premiums, i.e. you need to buy if you want to get the options. On the other end someone has to sell them to you as well, if not where can you buy them from isn't it? The seller is also known as the writer of the option because he is the one who writes the contract to be sold, including the strike price and expiry date. In the US, 1 share option contract represents a bundle of 100 shares. So if the premium of the option is $0.2, it actually means $20 per contract because $0.2 x 100 shares = $20 premium. So for the writers of call options, you cannot sell a covered call option if you only have less than 100 shares. Writing naked options is not recommended unless you are already an expert. Naked options are written when you do not own the shares to cover for it.

To explain what premium is, it is basically the same as insurance premiums you pay for your car or your house insurance. You pay around $1000 premium per year for your car insurance right? Well the insurance you receive is actually the same as the option. You have to pay to get it, it has an expiry date, and if the insurance / option is not used after the expiry date it will go to waste. So who sell them? Insurance companies of course. But for options, invidividuals like you and me can also sell them to make money, but very high risk. More on this later. Read the above 2 paragraphs again if you want to because it can be confusing at first. You have to get the general understanding that options are basically similar to the way a pizza voucher or insurance premium works before you can go further.

Option is also called as a wasting asset. This means if not exercised by expiry and not sold, this asset will then expire worthless. An example will be buying a bottle of water and leaving the cap off for a certain period. The water will then evaporate and you will lose the 'asset', which is the water that you bought.

So how is options the same as pizza voucher? 3 Similarities

1. Predetermined price shown on both the voucher / option (eg: $4)

They have a predetermined price to buy the pizza or share. If the pizza voucher say you can buy the pizza for $4 per piece, then even if the pizza's retail price is $7 which everyone else has to pay, you only have to pay $4 when you present the voucher. Same goes to share options, although they call it the Strike Price. If the option you hold says you can buy the shares at $4, then even if the shares are trading at $7, you can still use your option to buy the shares at $7. But when buying options, you can choose the price you want in the option. So instead of $4, you can choose to buy the strike price of $5, or $6 options and this will mean different premiums.

2. Predetermined expiry date

All vouchers and options have expiry dates. You will always see in a pizza voucher that you have to use it before XX date, which is the expiry date of the voucher. Same goes to options. They also have expiry dates. The thing is, when you are shopping for options, there are many expiry dates for you to choose from and the longer the expiry date, the more you have to pay because there is longer time for the price of the share to move in your favour, make sense? I have to point out that for share options, it always expire on the third Friday of the month shown on the option. So if the option says it will expire in March, it means whatever date the Third Friday of March is will be the expiry date. Unless the third Friday is a public holiday and the market is closed. If this is the case the expiry date will be on Thursday, 1 day before the normal expiry day. If you want to know what the third of Friday in March 2009, just go to your monthly calendar and count down towards the 3rd Friday of the month, so first Friday of 2009 will fall on the 6th, second Friday will fall on the 13th and the third is on the 20th. This means the march option will expire on 20/03/2009. For april options they will expire on 17/04/2009. Get it?

3. The right to use / exercise

Voucher / options gives the owner the right to use them. If you have a legit pizza voucher that gives you the right to buy a pizza for $4, the owner of the pizza shop that gives the voucher cannot refuse the deal. He/she has to sell the pizza for you at $4 even if the retail price is $7, as long as it is before the expiry date. I'm sure you know what I mean right? So it is also the same as options. If you have the right to buy the shares at $4/share, you can use the option to buy them at $4 even if the share price is currently at $7. Now the question is who's giving you the shares at $4? That's the person who sold you the option, the same person who received your premium when you bought the option from him/her. Which is why I said before that sellers of options have very high risk because right now this seller have to lose $3/share. Why? Because he should be able to sell the shares at $7/share to the market, but because he's bound by the options contract, he has to sell to you at $4/share, should you wish to exercise the option contract before the expiry date.

CALL OPTIONS

So its time to put all the 3 characteristics of an option to work. Let's start with the call option (just because people gets confused with put options). From the above definition, The call option is the right to buy the underlying security at a certain price on or before a certain date. Let's break this down in laymen's terms. Basically the option giver the owner/buyer the right to buy, and the seller is obigated to sell because it is a binding conract between the buyer and the seller, as I've explained in point 3. The underlying security can be shares, index, ETFs and many more. But for now we will focus just on shares. Certain price has been explained in no.1 above. It is the predetermined price which you have to pay if you want to exercise/use the option (eg: the $4 example in the pizza voucher). Before a certain date just means before the expiry date written in the option contract which is explained in point 2 above.

There are many services out there that offers you trade alerts on which options to buy. These services basically have their own technical / fundamental analysis that tells them which options is good to buy. When they send you a trade alert they will tell you like this:

Buy the C Mar $4 Call for $3.5 or better

This means you should buy Citigroup's call option ( C is the share symbol for Citigroup) that expires on the 3rd Friday of March, with a strike price of $4, for $3.50 premium or less. Better means cheaper premium so it's better for you since you do not have to fork out more money. As said before, the strike price is the predetermined price for the option. So if you decide to exercise this option, it doesn not matter whether the share price of Citigroup is currently $2 or $10, you still have to buy them for $4.

Intrinsic Value (Monetary Value) and Extrinsic Value (Time Value)

From here on it gets a little bit more technical and confusing, but these are the important parts of the option that you have to understand if you want to trade successfully. The premium is made up of these 2 parts, intrinsic and extrinsic value.

Intrinsic value means monetary value of the premium. So if the share is trading at $7 and you have the right to buy it at $4, the intrinsic value is $3. But if the share price is $2 and you have the right to buy at $4, there is no intrinsic/monetary value, but it has a extrinsic/time value of $2. TO make things simple, just minus the share price by the strike price. If the remainder is positive, that is the monetary value. Practical example: You bought an option to buy Citigroup's shares at $4.

1. Citigroup shares are trading at $7 and you paid $3.50 for the premium:

7 - 4 = 3

So $3 is the intrinsic/monetary value.

3.5 - 3 = 0.5

So $0.50 is the time value, more on time value later.

2. Citigroup shares are trading at $2 and you paid $0.2 for the premium:

2 - 4 = -2

So there is no intrinsic/monetary value since the result is negative and therefore $0.20 is the time value.

Time Value

Why is there time value? This is because there is a degree of uncertainty and there is an amount of time where the share price can move. Basically speaking those 2 are the risk for the writer of the option. To compensate for this risk the buyer have to pay the seller some amount of time value for the seller to think it is worth it to sell the option at this price. Think about it if you are the seller, would you sell the $4 for just $3 (making a total of $7)? Of course not because you can just sell the share for $7 straight away to the market right? So there has to be an incentive for the seller which is the $0.5 time value. Why is the writer willing to sell? Simple. That is because the seller has the inverse mindset to the buyer. The buyer thinks the share is going to go up, but the seller will thing the share price is either going down or stay the same, i.e. $7 or less. Because if at expiry the share price is still $7 or less, they will get to keep the $0.5 premium and the shares as well. Even if you decide to foolishly exercise the option when the share is $7, they will just let you buy the shares from him and he can buy them from the market again for the same or lower price should he wish to do so.

In The Money (ITM) and Out of The Money (OTM)

So we have determined what the strike price and the premium values mean, we are going to look at ITM and OTM. Simply speaking if your option premium has an intrinsic value it will be called in the money. If following example 2 above where Citigroup's share price is $2 and you bought an option with strike price of $4, the $0.20 premium will be all time value and is therefore called OTM.

So what is so important about these 2? Very important because generally, basic traders should buy options which are in the money and sell options that are out the money. This is because amateur traders do not have a good feel of the market and how options really works yet. If by any chance the share price does not move at all, at least there is still intrinsic value left for the buyer to sell the options back to the market before it expires. Same for sellers, if the price does not move then the OTM option will not be exercised since no one will not buy the shares from you since the strike price is more expensive than the current market price.

Expiry dates are also important, typically buyers should buy options that are expiring in 3 months or longer. Whereas writers should sell options that expires in the current month or 1 month later. This is because the time value of an option depreciates the fastest in the last 30 days of the option's lifespan.

PUT OPTIONS

This option is basically the inverse of the call option. Whereas the buyers of call options think the share price will go up in the near future, the buyers of the put options think the share price will go down in the near future. But let me make this clear. There are buyers and sellers of call options and buyers and sellers of put options. Sellers of call options are NOT buyers of put options. Please do not get confused between the 2.

Put options gives the buyer the right to sell the shares at a predetermined price before the expiry date. Most share owners buy put options as insurance against their own shares so that if the share price fall below the strike price, they have the right to sell the shares at the strike price. All share owners should have put options as a hedge against their shares. You can buy put options even though you do not own the shares. But why do you want to do that?

Think about watching a football match. You really want to buy a ticket to see this match, but its all sold out. There is this guy sitting near a tree with loads of tickets that he's willing to sell at a higher price. This guy is actually not going to see the match but is making money because there is no tickets left in the ticket booth and the others have no choice but to buy from him. Same goes for options. You do not have to exercise them, but if the options go very deep ITM, you can sell them to someone who wants them at a much higher price. So in the put option's case, is you may not have the shares but you buy them because you can sell them later on to someone else who is willing to pay the appropriate premium for their own reasons.

So what is the difference between a writer of a call option and a buyer of a put option? Both want the share price to go down to make money isn't it? That's true. But the main difference is the level of risk. As a buyer of a put option, if the share price does not go down and in fact, goes up, all you lose is just the premium, or even less if you put a stop loss. But if you write a covered call option, you will regret it if you wrote the option with strike price of $7 and it goes to $20 because you can only, and will have to, sell the shares at $7. Naked call options are even worse. Because you do not own the shares and still have to sell the shares to the buyer at $7, you have to buy the shares at the current market price if the buyer decides to exercise their rights. If the current market price is $20 you have to fork out $1300 [(20-7) x 100] from your account!!! That is why I said selling naked options is a big NO NO, especially for beginners.

Tips for beginners:

1. Buy options instead of selling, you will learn how to sell after you are comfortable with buying options
2. Buy options that are 3 months out or more, if you want to sell options, sell those that are expiring in the current or the next month
3. Buy options that are in the money, or sell options that are out of the money
4. Put limit on loss and limit on profit. Because you should not and cannot be staring at the computer for the whole 8 hours a day that the market is trading so you never know when the share price hits your desired target or crushed your options
5. Create a trade limit. This means how many percent of the money in your trade account will be used as trading. This way if the share prices did not go your way, you will not be crushed. If for example you have $10000 in your trading account and you want to put a trade limit of 10%, that means the other $9000 will not be touched until the $1000 worth of open position has been closed, whether profit or not. After they are closed, then you can use another 10% of the total to open some more positions.

There are many more topics that have not been covered in here but I hope this is enough for me to provide you with the basics of options trading. There are many strategies involved in options trading like the condor, butterfly and the spreads, not to mention the more detailed information of the premium calculations involving the Greeks. If you would like to know more you can search on the internet or e-mail me at barn_83@yahoo.com.sg. Till then, have fun and good luck on your trading!!!

Dance Dance Revolution

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Winning Eleven / Pro Evolution Soccer

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My Life

INRODUCTION

Hi There,
This blog is about my life and my interest. First I have to say that I am not politically correct and anyone can have their own opinion. However if I have somehow offended you in any way, I apologise and you can just stop reading my blog instead of writing angry comments. Enjoy you life, laugh more, fret less. Cheers!

My name is Eric Vincent Barnabas and I am currently living in Sydney. All my life, I had lived in 3 countries: Indonesia, Singapore and Jakarta. I am as most people call us, Indo-Chinese. For those who're wondering what that means, its just that our ancestors who arrived in Indonesia from China to make a living and gave birth to some kids, who gave birth to more kids and eventually my parents gave birth to me and my 2 brothers. So in my example, my grandparents came from China and gave birth to my parents in Indonesia. So they're Indonesian by status, but Chinese by blood. Thus the term Indo-Chinese. The same goes for Malay-Chinese, or whichever country that has Chinese people that were born there. I still get lots of Chinese friends who for some reason are awed when I say I can speak Mandarin. I mean I am supposed to anyways so it shouldn't be such a surprise...

LIVING IN INDONESIA

I've heard from my mom that I wasn't an easy baby to give birth to, giving false alarms and making her going to and fro the hospital for like 3 times. To cut things short I had been living in my mom's womb for 10 months before I finally decided to come out. Smarty pants... Because of that, I was born in November and had to hold off starting my education until the next batch started. So instead of going to the kindergarten with the babies from 1983, I had to play with the 1984 batch...

Born in a poor family, My older brother Hermes and I had to be content with eating plain meals, sometimes without any meat (which I now cannot live without. They're so yummy!!!). When we were small everything seems so simple. It's just school, homework and play. Everyday of the week. We never thought about how our parents are struggling to bring the bread home, or to keep paying the rent/mortgage (far out.. Now I feel like I'm in Secondary School English exam writing an essay).

Back then, our transport are becak (trishaws) or bajaj - the Indo version of Thailand's Tuk Tuk . We almost never see a becak on the streets anymore, and the bajaj are going to be modified to use LPG instead of low-grade petrol. These 2 are just 1 of the many transports that covers Indonesia's roads. Besides taxis and buses, we still have omprengans, mikrolets and bemos, which are all like mini buses and can fit in around 4 - 10 people. In our free times we would play marbles or Greenspot, where you have to step/avoid another person's foot and is played in turn. Very unlike the games nowadays where everyone has become individualistic, concentrating on their PSP, Nintendo DS or staying at home playing their PS3 / PC games (yeah yeah I admit I'm one of those guys). In Indonesia, almost all families have maids, including mine. Maids are basically housekeepers that cleaned up the house and typically they live in the house as well. They normally come from villages, some at a tender age of 14, to work in the cities like Jakarta. Until now my family still have 1 maid and 1 driver that I know of that has worked for us for more than 20 years.

After saving up some money, my parents decided to start up a bread factory. Everything was starting to become good, great... My mom even gave birth to my younger brother Ryan when I was 6 (extremely cute face when he's just a little boy, but every boy has to grow up...). Until one rainy day when we were about to leave the factory, my dad decided to fix a broken light in the factory and was electrocuted. The workers carried him home and when my mom saw him unconscious, she broke down. Tried to gave him herbal tea to drink. Cried her heart out. Devastated. Lost for words. Called the ambulance. I just stood there... An 8 year old not really understanding what's happening beside sniffing the ironboard smell coming out from the charred hole on my dad's right palm, about 4 cm in diameter. My father was pronounced dead on the way to the hospital. Or at least that's how I remember it. I can vaguely remember his face. But all my relatives said that if I want to see him, I just have to look into the mirror. Well, I must have had a handsome dad...

LIVING IN SINGAPORE

After afew months or so, in 1992, my brother and I went to Singapore to continue our studies. My mom and I had different views on how this happened. Because what I remembered was we were on my mom's bed and she asked if I wanted to go to Singapore and I said yes. But my mom's recollection was different, very different. She said I was begging my mom to send us to Singapore, because my cousins were studying there.

Either way, we arrived in Singapore and my mom used whatever money she had left to try and get us accomodation. I think she told me it was $5000. That's also the same amount that was conned by some fake real estate agent. With no money and no house to live in, I am not sure how my mother can rent a flat for me and my older brother at Bishan. I do not even know how she can single-handedly raise 3 boys - 2 in Singapore - all these years. Al I know is that everytime we come back to Jakarta, my relatives would always remind us that my mother is very great, very capable, and we should not hurt her or disobey her for she has sacrificed much and worked so hard. We must have heard that at least 100 times, but we never feel sick of it, because we know it's true. in 1992, the exchange rate was roughly Indonesia ~1000Rp to Singapore $1. By 1998 when the Indonesia Riot happened, the exchange rate has gone up by 5 times - ~5000Rp to $1. Yet, my mother was still able to support my brother and I through Primary School, Secondary School and Polytechnic. Even through university in Australia. Who cares if my classmates said that I was a Mommy's boy. I still am and I'm proud to be one.

FORTUNE TELLER

My mom and Ryan were in Jakarta 2 nights before the riot happened. She used to go to this fortune teller who was very accurate at what he can see and advise. So 2 nights before the riot, she went to him for her regular visits, not knowing the riot is about to start. From what my mom told me, the fortune teller took a leaf, rubbed his right hand against it and a hole burnt up in the middle of the leaf. He said that something very bad is going to happen in Indonesia, although he did not say what. Curious, my mom asked,' When will this bad day happen?' To which he replied,' Tomorrow.' He then gave each person who came to his house a charm and said that anyone who had possession of this charm will not be harmed tomorrow.

Always believing in fortune telling and not wanting to risk the chance, my mother bought 10 tickets straight away and asked some of her relatives if they wanted to go with her to Singapore that very night. I cannot remember how many people went with her but in the end at least my mom, Ryan and my Grandpa made it to Singapore. That night when they were on the way to the airport, the riot has just begun. The rioters had started setting cars on fire, looting the houses and raping people. Some cars were even stopped and then burnt with people still in it. Somehow, my mom's car just drove through without being noticed by the rioters. At that point my younger brother who was 9 years old told Mom,' I'm not coming back to Jakarta ever again.' My mom then told me that on the way to the airport, she told herself that if they were able to get to Singapore safely, she would kiss the ground of Singapore. According to her, that's what she did when the plane touched down at Changi Airport. Since then, My younger brother Ryan has lived with my older brother and I in Singapore, while Mom went back to Jakarta some months later to continue her business when Indonesia had somewhat stabilised.

Life in Singapore is fun. Almost every town (no, not suburb. The whole of Singapore is smaller than a suburb) has a community centre which has basketball court, squash court and a hall for watching TV. It is a good place to find and meet new friends. More so for my brothers who like to play basketball every day after school, 7 days a week. For me, my spare time was spent running up and down Orchard Road with my friends, or playing Pool or Counter Strike, the hottest game in Singapore back then. Almost in every shopping centre you can find a place that provide Pool tables and LAN shops. You just have to find 1 with the lowest price. Another favourite game of mine back then was Dance Dance Revolution. I used to play that game almost everyday with the same bunch of people. Those days I could dance for like 15 songs a day. Unlike now where 3 songs can make my legs start shaking.

Food is abundant as well. With some hawker centres opening 24 hours a day there's no way you can starve... At least not when 1 of those is just opposite my apartment, beside my neightborhood Primary School. Some of the best food in Singapore are definitely Fried Carrot Cake, Oyster Omellette, Kway Chap, Grilled Sting Ray, Laksa, Roti Prata, Bah Kut Teh, Hainam Chicken Rice and Fried Ice Cream.

Singapore is also a clean place. I do not think I can find a place where I cannot see any trees. Of course, chewing gums are prohibited and there are people who avoided visiting Singapore just because of that, seriously... Come on, at least I do not have to worry about gum stuck on my shoes, something that has happened to me quite afew times in Jakarta and Sydney, disgusting...

LIVING IN SYDNEY

After living in Singapore for around 10 years, my older brother had finally finished his 4 years of Diploma of Electrical Engineering from Singapore Polytechnic at the end of 2002. I was still in Year 1 of my Diploma of Accounting in the same polytechnic when my mom decided to send both of us to Australia. She said she wanted to retire there and if we can get Permanent Residency after we graduate from a University in Sydney we can get it and therefore sponsor my mom. So off we go down under, leaving all our beloved friends behind.

Before we came here, my mom had bought an apartment in a suburb called Rockdale. It was quite cheap since she bought it from blueprint, i.e. before the building was even constructed. It was all good, but the thing is... My university is Macquarie University, which is in Epping. It took me 1 hour plus by train, and it's not even a straight train, I needed to change it in Redfern first. Luckily we had bought a car so I drove it to uni. My mom had asked my uncle, which is only around 5 years older than me, to accompany us in buying the car.

NISSAN PULSAR Q

On a hot afternoon, my uncle Jacob took us to the most car dealers in a suburb: Parramatta. Never in my life had I seen so many cars grouped together in a block of land... I mean I know I was still 19 years old but I've had my share of life, moving on...

After sweating 69% of the water in our bodies, Jacob finally found us this cool-looking car. A charcoal-black 4-door coupe, 2001 model with only 30,000km under its belt. He said $21,500 for the highest class of the Pulsar range was a good price and my mom thought that is cheap compared to the cars in Indonesia, so we bought it home. Few months later, I saw a tv ad featuring Nissan Pulsar ST, a lower class model but also with similar features that really mattered like central locking, auto windows and air-con. Only 3 differences: it's lower class, it's brand new and it only costed $19,999!!!I told myself,' !@#$%^&*'

So yes, now I've got a car to go to uni. Thing is, on top of having short term memory in names and faces, I also have trouble remembering roads, unlike my older brother Hermes, who can remember them just by going there once. So for the next 5 weeks, I took the 1.5 hour train to uni. Apart from Fridays because that's the only time when my brother did not have to go to his university in the city, lucky guy. So every Friday he would wake up at 6 and drive me to my uni, a 45mins drive 1 way and another 45 mins back home. He did this for 5 weeks i.e. 5 times before I knew the roads well enough. Yeah I've got a brother who loves me, lucky me.

Life in Australia, should I say NSW since I've never lived in another state, is very relaxing. The shops closed at 5 apart from Thursday when most workers get paid. It took some time for us to get used to living here because back in Indonesia and Singapore, the shops mostly close at 9-10pm everyday. If we feel hungry at midnight we can go to lots of hawker centres that are still open. But in here, we cannot go shopping at night apart from loitering in Chinatown, and the only restaurant open at midnight within 15 mins travelling radius is MacDonald's opposite my apartment...

University life is even more relaxing... 4 subjects per semester is standard, as compared to the Diploma I took back in Singapore Polytechnic, where I had to take about 7 per semester. I'm still unable to work out why Singapore Polytechnic needs 7 subjects per semester, 2 semesters per year for 3 years to complete Dilpoma of Accounting. But the institutes in Australia only need 4 subjects per semester and 2 semesters per year for only 1 year. That is a massive difference of 34 subjects!!! And don't get my started on the difference between Australia's and Indonesia's university subjects that the students have to take... Shocking...

I mean in Macquarie University (here I go) I only have to take 4 subjects per semester for 3 years. That equals 4 sub x 2 sem x 3 yr = 24 subjects. My relative who also took Bachelor of Commerce -Accounting took around 8-10 subjects per semester, which equates to roughly 50 subjects!!! What good does that do? I mean no offense but in the end the net income difference of a graduate from the 2 countries is 8 times!! The standard of living in Australia is higher but the cost is maybe only 2-3 times higher. Make it into a ratio and Aussie salary still wins by about 2.5:1. So what's the point in studying so much? Even better, Australian universities are recognised, unlike most of Indonesian Universities. Again no offense but its the truth.

After almost 7 years living in Australia, I have almost totally changed my lifestyle. I rarely go out with friends anymore. Playing pool and Counter Strike are not that hot in Australia, in fact Australia almost never have any craze in anything. The only thing I know is ipod, which is taking the whole world as its own anyway. I remember back in Singapore I used to know almost every model number of Nokia like the 8210, 8250, 8800 or whatever, just because mobile phones are 1 of the craze in Singapore. In here, I only recognise my current mobile model, Samsung U700, with a broken camera lens. At least I got it for free under contract. We'll never get a free mobile in Singapore or Indonesia, so I did not believe it when my other uncle Ricky, who's also about 5 years older than me, told us that he got his for free. Well I guess he's right then... That's my 3rd free mobile charging between me and my computer. THE Samsung U700, with a faulty camera. And it's getting worse.

Right now I spend most of my spare time at home, playing PS2 games like Winning Eleven or PC games like Warcraft III: Defense of the Ancients. I have also started trading options in the US market. Don't even know what that is until I was studying Investment Planning, a subject I took when I was studying Diploma of Financial Services. Life has become monotonous for me now. Working in a Big 4 bank for a 9-5 job.. Well, 8:30 - 4:30 to be exact. Come home and switch on the TV and PC while preparing dinner for myself, and then watch Channel 10 (always) and either play game, blog, or look at the US market when it's sleeping. Some times I do go out with friends or families for a movie, some karaoke or eating out. Maybe this will change soon, probably when I have a girlfriend, but that's still a long way off... Till then, take good care of yourselves and feel free to post any comment, cheers!!!!